Logipundit Israel/Palestine Post

It just occured to me how tired I am of Scottie and I talking past each other on the Israel/Palestine issue.

First, we actually agree on some things having to do with Israel/Palestine, and although we obviously disagree on tons of other things on the subject, I’m going to dedicate a post to what we DO agree on.

Here’s the way it’ll go…first I will list the few things that right now I’m pretty sure that we agree on, and you guys answer back with agreed or disagreed…if there are any disagreeds from the authors, we’ll erase it from the list. As you come up with new things yourselves, throw them out there and we’ll all agree or not…as new things get a unanimous thumbs up.

Preferably, let’s avoid the commentary, just agree or disagree, and offer candidates. And keep it simple. The goal for me would be to come up with as long of a list as possible. Hopefully we can use this as a reference point from now to remind ourselves that we all don’t want anyone else to die or be discriminated against on either side of this conflict.

This is not a ploy, and not an agenda, it’s just an attempt to begin (renew) a discussion about a very contentious topic on the basis of common ground instead of controversial ground.

And for the record, I made this up exactly 7 minutes ago, so if it’s a weird idea, too bad. And for the record, I will not be posting or commenting on Israel for the next thirty days except through this post. The rest can post as you like, but I will only be trying to make this list longer.

So here goes, and I’m just going to start with three in no particular order:

* Israel is guilty of human rights atrocities in Palestine
* US military support of Israel has been largely unconditional
* Suicide bombing is a bad idea for everyone involved

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29 Responses to “Logipundit Israel/Palestine Post”

  1. scottie Says:

    agree with all 3

    and i like the idea of the post

    very creative, and should help us avoid recycling arguments

    add : israel’s UN resolution violations are evidence of a double-standard

    add : israel’s nuclear arsenal is evidence of a double-standard with respect to non-proliferation

    add : a one-state solution makes more sense than the two-state solution, and palestinians giving up self-determination must be coupled with israel granting full right of return and full-citizenship within israel proper

    what do you think about the role of aipac in securing pro-israel foreign policy legislation?

    and i am just brainstorming here, you can decide since it is your post, the thousands of palestinians and lebanese rotting in israeli prisons, including the well over 1000 administrative detainees (no charges against them)

    last point for now : the occupation itself; you previous claimed that the occupation was necessary because of terrorist threats, but you have reversed cause and effect. the idf is in the OT because they are there to protect the illegal israeli settlers. in hebron , eg, there are some 4,000 idf troops there to protect 400 israeli squatters who have taken a building, and aim to stay there

    i know about this example with specific details because my step-dad’s daughter works for the UN in the OT, and he told me about the situation in hebron when he visited there last summer

    when the palestinians come outside their shops, the israeli squatters throw trash on them, they throw feces on them, and the palestinians have erected a huge net to stop the debris from raining down on them. and through it all, the idf are there to make sure the israelis are protected.

    hebron is in the west bank and not the west bank

    i know i strayed a bit from your intended format, but consider these points

  2. scottie Says:

    holy cow : i am still waking up

    the comment was meant to be “in the west bank and not israel proper “

  3. JohnnyB Says:

    I agree with logipundit’s statements:

    Disagree with Scottie’s first statement. Israel violates UN resolutions because the Israeli government, especially 1948-1973, will not follow UN resolutions at the expense of it’s existence. The relative peace with Egypt following the 1973 war is evidence that Israel is willing to negotiate with countries that stop attacking it (i.e. recognize it’s existence). Let me just say that statement #1 is too vague. U.N. resolutions are vague as to where the Sheba farms belong etc. until Hezbollah became powerful Syria, Lebanon, and the UN recognize Sheba Farms as Syrian. Following the Israeli pullout of Lebanon, which was in accordance with the UN, Hezbollah needed an excuse to rule southern Lebanon.
    Statement #2 I’ll agree
    Statement #3 Maybe in an ideal situation but your comments point to the fact that these people hate each other. Plenty of posts by you about the victimization of the Palestinians, and plenty of media coverage out there about Iranian support of Hamas and Hezbollah stirring up trouble. It’s impossible to be a victim and a champion at the same time. I hate to say it but this will ultimately boil down to a serious military conflict in the region and the result will be an expulsion of the Jews or the Palestinians. Since the Jews have the bomb now the biggest concern will be whether Iran and Israel lob bombs at each other. I just don’t see an Israeli melting pot happening anytime soon.

  4. JohnnyB Says:

    Add: Israel has built cities where none had stood before (e.g. Tel Aviv). They have the most patents per capita, the most PhDs per capita, and the most startup companies on NASDAQ besides Canada and the U.S.

    Add:When all neighboring countries attacked Israel (1948, 1973), and Israel won (or tied 1973), that is when it won independence. The refusal of Syria and Iran to acknowledge the Isreali nation is the reason Isreal keeps the Golan Heights. If a country attacks another country and loses land, the attacking country loses and should not get bailed out by the UN.

    Add: The Average Arab in Israel can vote in the Israeli parliamentary system, if the party he votes for recognizes the state of Israel. In Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, the average citizen has little or no say in how his country is governed. Therefore to be concerned about voters rights for Arabs in Israel but not other countries is to have a double standard.

  5. JohnnyB Says:

    Ok, these might be easier to agree on.

    Add: Israel has not always been friendly to the US or UK. It has sunk the USS Liberty (supposedly by accident) and terrorized British rulers (i.e. targeted a civilian hotel) in it’s infancy.

    Add: Israeli occupation of the West Bank does nobody any good and building a security fence within the West Bank is illegal. (However building a fence between Israel and Palestine seems fair to me).

  6. scottie Says:

    ill start from the end of johnny b’s comments:

    the USS Liberty was not an accident
    i have studied this issue at a very deep level
    if you want me to swamp you with actual detail, then say the word

    but i honestly dont feel like writing for an hour when i know it will likely go unread anyway

    second point, i have many relevant documents saved on my computer regarding UN resolutions, both UN security council and general assembly resolutions, that israel has defied

    i can cut and paste them in 5 minutes if you want to peruse them, or you can visit the UN site directly and search the records

    you characetrization of the nature of the violation of the UN resolutions is way off

    i am a little busy right now getting ready for work tomorrow, but let me know if you want to take up the Liberty episode or want some references on israel’s UN resolution with which israel has not complied

  7. Logipundit Says:

    yes one could argue that we have indeed strayed from the format.

    LOL…

    Appreciate the enthusiasm as usual.

    Adding Israel’s nuclear arsenal is evidence of a double standard with respect to non-proliferation.

    As far as Scottie’s third statement, I actually agree. It doesn’t say “anytime soon” it says it makes more sense. But we’ll table it…must be unanimous.

    Agree with a few of Johnny’s statements but splitting them up and eliminating the conclusions…it’s important to keep this simple (line-item veto if you will) starting with the least controversial:

    *Israel has built cities that never existed (Tel-Aviv)
    *Israel has the most PhDs, patents, and NASDAQ companies behind US and Canada.
    *The Average Arab in Israel can vote in the Israeli parliamentary system, if the party he votes for recognizes the state of Israel.
    *Israel has not always been friendly to the US or UK.
    *Israel sunk the USS Liberty (so hasn’t always been friendly to the US)
    *Israel terrorized British rulers (i.e. targeted a civilian hotel) in it’s infancy.
    *In Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, the average citizen has little or no say in how his country is governed.
    *Israeli occupation of the West Bank does nobody any good.
    *Building a fence within the West Bank is illegal.
    *Israel’s nuclear arsenal is evidence of a double standard with respect to non-proliferation.

    These I’m going to add, it’s OK to request a deletion after the fact…there will be no objections to a deletion.

    Also: “your characterizations are way off”, “completely wrong”, “I’ve got volumes of books that prove you wrong”, “I could tell you how wrong you are, but it’ll never get read”, etc. etc…

    These statements are completely off limits ON THIS PARTICLAR POST for the time being (on all the other posts anything goes). If you don’t agree just say you don’t agree. (YEP…laying down the damn Logipundit law…just this once…:o))

    It’s not that we won’t have the opportunity to discuss them (this is just phase one after all)…but we can always come back to them…for right now stick to the ones we agree on.

    However, the “what do you think of this?” brainstorming, “you might want to consider this” these are better ways to approach subjects that are obviously contentious.

    Just would like the tone to be positive (not that it hasn’t been).

    Once we have a decent enough list we can start drawing conclusions and connecting the necessary dots to discuss some of the more contentious points.

    I think this is going to help…thanks.

  8. Logipundit Says:

    Also, requesting to add:

    * Hamas’ charter does not allow for the existence of Israel.
    * The PLO charter has still never actually been amended to allow for the existence of Israel.
    * Both Jewish and Arab Israelis on the average have bigger noses than the average Taiwanese.

  9. scottie Says:

    hamas charter states that i will not recognize the right for israel to exist AS LONG AS IT OCCUPIES THE WEST BANK AND EAST JERUSALEM IN VIOLATION OF UN 242 AND MANY SUBSEQUENT UN RESOLUTIONS ON THE ISSUE

    if you add that qualification, then no objections from me

    if you omit this key qualification, then i will blog ad nauseam til you get it right ….

  10. JohnnyB Says:

    Actually I agree with all three of those last posts LP

  11. Logipundit Says:

    LOL…blog ad nauseam.

    Dude…I want to agree with you, but simply cannot, because I have read the charter three times now, have done a word search, and everything.

    Please show me (just quote a couple of paragraphs so I can find it easily) in this charter where the existence of Israel is allowed for as long as it occupies the West Bank and east Jerusalem. If they have updated this charter, then send me the link. Either way, if it’s there I’ll add the qualification.

    This isn’t opinion…either it’s there or it’s not.

    In the meantime, there is obviously not agreement on that one, so it’s tabled, the nose thing will probably not make the list (obviously), so that leaves the PNC…do you agree with that one?

  12. scottie Says:

    please correct Israel sunk the USS Liberty

    it was never sunk in fact

    it made it to malta

    the attempt to sink her was clear

    34 dead, 171 wounded

    thomas moorer, later the chairman of the jcs, called it deliberate

    dean rusk called it deliberate

    captain ward boston signed an affadavit before he recently died that lbj ordered a coverup

    boston worked for the naval court of appeal

    if someone has questions about the Liberty incident, please email me at sorrell67@cox.net

    i would be happy to explain the background and possible israeli motives for the attack

  13. scottie Says:

    all right, a compromise

    include the hamas charter as you stated it, but add this qualification

    literally 5 hours after fatah and hamas agreed this summer to implicitly recognize israel, the israelis re-invaded the gaza (prior to the lebanon war)

    the reason offered by the israelis was the “kidnapping” of corporal gilad shalit

    the “capture” of gilad shalit happened less than 24 hours after israeli soldiers in fact kidnapped 2 palestinian civilians, a doctor and his brother, and the shalit capture was a response to that.

    after the redepolyment of the idf to the gaza, the agreement that hamas and fatah reached to implicitly recognize israel was academic

    coincidental ? hmmmm

    so we all agree to condemn the hamas charter as long as it refuses to agree with UN 242, that israel withdraw its forces and settlers from the west bank, east jerusalem, and the golan heights

    how’s that butch?

  14. Logipundit Says:

    Here are a couple more:

    * The Modern State of Israel was created by the UN Partition Plan in 1947
    * The Arab League never accepted the terms of the UN Partition Plan

  15. Logipundit Says:

    Edited:

    * Irgun was an extremist militant spinoff of Haganah; it was considered a terrorist group by the British for its role in attacks on British installations.

    I would request the following added as well:

    * Haganah was formed to defend Jewish settlements from Arab attackers, and was not a terrorist group.

    * Palmach was an elite fighting force of Haganah.

    * Lehi (synonomous with Stern Gang) was result of yet another split of Irgun and was even more extreme.

    * Haganah cooporated with Irgun forces in the Arab/Israeli war.

    * Menachem Begin, the leader of Irgun would later become Prime Minister of Israel.

    * Yitzhak Shamir was a member of both Irgun and Lehi and later became Prime Minister of Israel.

    * Ben-Gurion was a member of neither Irgun or Lehi, but the “Jewish Agency” which ran Haganah after 1929.

  16. Logipundit Says:

    OH…just noticed your post on Hamas.

    Great try but not good enough. From your comments I would venture to guess that you have come to the conclusion that the charter indeed does not include what it supposedly included, so from that I’ll assume you’ll agree.

    And I’m not condemning Hamas charter for it’s lack of following UN 242 (everyone on the planet has violated UN 242…my grandmother violated UN 242 last week crossing the street to get the mail! If I wake up in the morning, I’ll violate 242)

    I’m actually not even CONDEMNING the Hamas charter for failing to allow for the existence of Israel. I’m simply stating the fact that it has never and does not allow for the existence of Israel.

    Just concede this one…you know it’s true. It’ll make you feel better and everyone will have a renewed respect for your intellectual honesty and fairness.

    Do I have to close you five times? Or have I already?

    :o)

    OH, and I’ll be happy to correct the Liberty statement.

    And…Tel-Aviv stays or not?

  17. Logipundit Says:

    You see how this works, though?…we’re actually looking for things that we AGREE on?

    Give it time, you’ll get the hang of it.

    LOL.

    Hemati, Ripster, Rothell (honorary author…:o) ) Millions of logifans?

    Any additions?

  18. scottie Says:

    israel wasfounded in 48 butch
    i know the partition plan was voted on in 47, but the actual nation formed in 48

    thanks for the corrections on which prime minister belonged to which terror group

    i mix them up a little, but wrote the last without fact-checking, a bit sloppy on my part

    palmeh is an alternate spelling, just like hezbollah is sometimes hizbollah etc

  19. scottie Says:

    about the hamas charter, i did read it yesterday

    i could not find what i was looking for ! JK

    i know that i have read articles which said in essence what i said concerning the recognition of israel was a non-option while israel continues its occupation

    so i’ll surrender for now, but i might dig a little deeper, because i dont make things up out of thin air dude

    i noticed you had no comment on the timing of the gaza operations last summer when hamas and fatah agreed to implicitly recognize israel

    just curious why you had no comments, as this inclusion renders the issue of hamas refusing to recognize israel in its charter moot

  20. Logipundit Says:

    great point on the UN Partition…

    I’ll edit accordingly.

    I did not comment on the events of last summer, because I know little about them.

    So no objections on the rest of the list?

    Johnny any objections on the list?

  21. JohnnyB Says:

    It’s all good.

  22. scottie Says:

    a few more :

    – Israel should abide by UN resolutions , either General Assembly resolutions or security resolutions

    – Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aqsa’s Martyrs brigade, Hamas, and Fatah, and the other palestinian militant factions should build a consensus within the palestinian community, instead of having divisive platforms, and while the combat continues, these groups should stop their asymmetrical warfare ; target the IDF in their battles, and not Israeli civilians

    – Israel’s image in the international community would be greatly helped if it stopped :

    extra-judicial assassinations
    house demolitions
    collective punishment

    – Palestinian groups should recognize that the PR industry in the Unites States views them with disdain, and they should change their tactics to win over the American people, so as to influence a change in policy from the federal level ; i.e. instead of launching quassams, buy video cameras and film israeli atrocities, and perhaps pursue non-violence resistance, much like king or ghandi.

    – criticism of israeli policy is not anti-semitic in nature

    thats all i have to say for now

    it seems like i am omitting so much

  23. Logipundit Says:

    here are my edited versions (some with little change, and others just split up) along with some additions. They’re numbered so you can refer to them by number agree or disagree.

    1) Oslo accords grant PLO the same obligations of other Arab States to abide by UN resolutions.

    2) Israel and the PLO have equal responsibility to abide by UN resolutions (General Assembly or Security Council).

    3) Israel’s responsibility to self-preserve supercedes its responsibility to abide by UN resolutions.

    4) Fatah was founded as a secular political party for the purpose of the liberation of Palestine, and almost immediately became a terrorist group.

    5) Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa’s Martyrs brigade (an arm of Fatah), and Hamas are all terrorist groups.

    6) Yassir Arafat was the eventual leader of Fatah.

    7) Mahmoud Abbas was supported by Fatah in 2005.

    OH…and I believe I found what you were talking about Scottie:

    8) In January of 2004, a 10 year truce (hudna) was offered by senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi in exchange for Israel’s complete withdrawal to the 1967 borders.

    But I’ll add:

    9) a 10-year Hudna is not a recognition of Israel’s right to exist.

  24. JohnnyB Says:

    I agree with LPs amendments of and additions to Scotties last post. Big agreement with Scottie on non-violent resistance.

  25. Logipundit Says:

    Scottie, sincerest apologies. I fully intended to include these virtually unchanged (just split up and abbreviated) I will go ahead and post them. Always subject to change:

    * Israel’s image in the international community would be greatly helped if it stopped :

    -extra-judicial assassinations
    -house demolitions
    -collective punishment

    * Palestinian groups should recognize that the PR industry in the Unites States views them with disdain.

    * Palestinian groups should change their tactics to win over the American people.

    * Instead of launching quassams, Palestinians should pursue non-violent resistance, much like king or ghandi.

    * A change in policy (to less violent means) from Palestinians could very well influence a change in policy from the US on the federal level.

  26. Logipundit Says:

    full disclosure…Changed “PR industry” to American people…feel free to suggest edits…felt “PR industry” to be vague…”majority of American public”, maybe?

  27. Logipundit Says:

    And still waiting for Scottie’s OK on the numbered comments.

  28. Logipundit Says:

    Congratulations guys, we’re well on our way. Well over 30 substantive statment that we all agree on.

    Take a look at the list…when we get to 100, we will move on to Phase II of the discussion (yeah, making this up as I go along, but it should be good.)

    I’m going to offer another one, even though this might take some clarification:

    * Life for residents of Israel/Palestine (Arab, Jew, and Christian) was better before the creation of the State of Israel.

  29. Logipundit Says:

    Here’s another couple:

    * Chanting “Death to America” is not an effective way to change the hearts of minds of people and policy-makers in the West.

    * Romanticizing dying for Islam and sacrificing your children’s lives for Islam is not an effective way to promote non-violent protest.


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