I have not read Jordan’s new post, but will soon with great eagerness. These comments are directed at Johnny B’s latest.
I have read 4 books of Chomsky, 2 of them twice. I know that a person who reads 20 pages of his writing would be struck that he harshly criticizes the US government, foreign policy, and the US media. I say rightfully so, if you consider all perspectives. I really hate quoting famous people to make my point, but I will anyway (isn’t it funny how you write something differently the 2nd time through, as what follows never made it in my first piece that got deleted, probably by the CIA who is monitoring me, lol) :
Dissidence is the highest form of patrioism —- Thomas Jefferson
I don’t have a problem with Chomsky’s operating platform : question all sources, sift through the incredible amounts of propaganda, consult the US gov’s own records, and make your conclusions. In his defense, he reads voluminous works to make the subtlest of points, which , frankly , most people do not do. You argue that he dismisses counterpoints as propaganda. I need specifics there, because he always quotes his sources, explains very succintly how it is propaganda, and if you check his footnotes and endnotes, it’s all there. It is true that he is citical of the US gov’s action over the last , say, 60 years, but it is true that the US has done many bad things. If you feel he needs to balance that with also citing the good things the US does, fine, that’s just not his way. Proposition : There is vast propaganda within the US, and the US citizenry remains quite oblivious to it.
The problem is many Americans are working from a flawed platform : That the US gov, an extension of the US citizenry,is benevolent in nature, and most Americans reject any evidence contrary to that point as the “exception to the rule” rather than the rule. I submit that there are evil elements at work within the gov, and the US citizenry needs to be made aware of certain injustices that do exist. A choice to me made is clear: learn about said injustices or bury one’s head in the sand. Regrettably, the latter course is often followed.
Don’t defend the CIA. The CIA is the single biggest terrorist organization in the world and has been for some time. Mongoose, Mossadegh in Iran, Arbenz in Guatamala, Allende in Chile, the drug trade in Afghanistan and the Americas, the recruitment and training of bin Laden (who was met by the CIA station chief in the UAE in July 2001 at an American military hospital when the CIA was “supposedly” looking for bin Laden for the bombings of the US embassies in Africa and the USS Cole in Yemen, as verified by doctors and nurses working at the hospital and reported by a French (not the French, oh no) newspaper), and honestly, I can compile an even bigger list I were not ad-libbing. Check the historical record , as it is clear.
You mention Qhuadafi and Lockerbie. Let’s discuss the events before … The US Navy and its aircraft had been fired upon by Libyan forces for flying over its territories in the Gulf Of Sidra. Reported in the States was the crazy Libyans shooting at us. Well, our planes were in their airspace trying to get shot at (if you want proof I’ll send it to you) as a pretext for miltary action. The Libyan link to a German disco bombing that killed 1 US soldier was a fraud. Read Victor Ostrovsky’s “By Way of Deception”, in which Ostrovsky, a former MOSSAD agent, decsribes the mission to plant a trojan horse inside Libya to transmit radio communications linking the Libyans to the bombing. US intel intercepts the transmission, MOSSAD verifies(how convenient), and the US bombs Libya. The French and German intel cleared Libya, and the French refused to let the US bombers use French airspace, rightfully so. Qhuadafi’s daughter (or son?) was killed . Then and only then came Lockerbie. I am not defending terrorism, only stating that the entire background must be considered. The US should not complain about international terrorism , given its record with the CIA.
FACT: The US is the only country to be found guilty of international terrorism in a court (In 1988, the World Court condemned the US for its proxy war in Nicaragua.). Dispute that one. A bigger issue is the double-standard of international terrorism and the US.
You downplay the CIA’s involvement in Chile et al …
Guatamala: In 1954, under Dulles, the US performed a coup against President Arbenz, who was voted into office with over 70% of that country’s vote. The story in the US was that he was a dictator. The story in the US was that he was socialistic. What are the relevant facts? Well, I listened to the CIA agent in charge of the coup on the History Channel, and he said it was a joke. The CIA armed some peasants, told them where to be , what to do, and not to worry. If there were any problems, the US helicopters and Marine support would come. Arbenz did the unthinkable : He took land away from United Fruit Company(Chiquita bananas) and gave it to poor peasants to be farmed. Henry Cabot Lodge (United Fruit stockholder) ranted and raved about the Guatamalan outrage . When the CIA attempt ran into a roadblock, then the helicopters did show up, and then Arbenz resigned.
In Iran, in 1953, Kermit Roosevelt was the CIA agent who organized the coup against Mossadegh. Mossadegh was pro-Western ( he was educated in Switzrland), established a parliamentary system of governance, was uncorrupt, and a good man. Truman liked him. The West liked him. The Brits hated him because he nationalized Iranian oil. The Anglo-Iranian (which was British, not American) oil company was literally stealing the oil in Iran ,prior to Mossadegh, through bribery of governmental officals . The arguments for war in Vietnam and Korea under the “fighting communism” heading are there but no way that argument can be used in Iran. If you read Kinzer’s “All the Shah’s Men”, you will almost cry. I mean that. Would the Middle East be in such turmoil today if the coup had not been performed? The hostage situation in 1979 can be traced to that coup, read the trancripts. Eisenhower did not want to involve the US, but the Dulles brothers did, and they launched a two-pronged attack, using the CIA and the State Department claiming that Iran was susceptible to the pressures of communism. Joke. All because he nationalized Iranian oil. And who took his place? The Shah, a weak and corrupt leader who destroyed any type of democratic vestige Mossadegh estblished. Great work, boys, very nice. Now there is a steady drumbeat for war with Iran (Syria will be next) because they are enriching uranium. Maybe we can discuss the nuclear double-standard (US and Israel) at a later time.
I almost forgot … Castro and Cuba. Operation Mongoose might be the singlest biggest terrorist operation ever performed by the CIA. Working out of Miami’s south campus, there were something like 2000 agents, many CIA many Cuban exiles and dissidents. Bombing factories, blowing up ships in Havana’s harbor, it’s all well-documented. The interesting thing is that Castro’s rise was the result of nationalistic revolution , not a communistic one. The Cubans allied themselves with the Soviets only after the US cut off economic ties. The whole Cuban missile crisis soiled the relationship between Cuba and the USSR. There were overtures from Castro to abandon the Russian model, and Kennedy had sent an emissary to discuss a possible restoration of US-Cuban relations prior to his assassination. All that is moot now, but must be considered if discussing the issue of Cuban-American relations. The Chairman of the JCS, Lemnitzer, came up with a plan called Operation Northwoods. In this well-conceived plan, the US would attack itself, pin it on the Cubans, so we could up the timetable of war with Cuba. Lemnitzer was the highest ranking US soldier when the plan was written. How it worked was a US airliner would take off and land. A decoy plane would be blown up, Cuban involvement would be manufactured, and then … all-out war. There are records on Northwoods, like Bamford’s “Body of Secrets”, et al.
Don’t downplay these events, as they were real and shaped the politics of much of the world. And the list can be expanded.
You say that communism is bad. So is fascism, so is rascism, so is zionism, so is imperialism, so is colonialism, so is neo-colonialism, so is the distracted US population, so is injustice in the Middle East, propaganda, etc.
You argue that isolationism is bad. In 1912, Wilson was elected on his non-intervention policies. I bring up this era as I feel it marks the downturn of this once-great country (putting the treatment of the American Indians aside) . That’s what the people wanted, noninterventionism. The US fought a revolution against the Brits, and another war in 1812 against the Brits (who burned Washington in 1814 (?)), and yet we had to get involved in WWI and save them ? In his administration, Wilson passed the unconstitutional Federal Reserve Act and Income Tax legislation. The Federal Reserve’s inflation of the dollar led to the Great Depression, led us to another World War ( 38 million poeple died in the global theatre), and at a terrible cost (economic dependence on the “war machine”). Yet the people in 1912 wanted to be isolated. Flawed logic or not, when the government ignores the will of its people, it cannot be labeled democratic.
Next counterpoint: the US is not a democracy, and it is not even close. The US is a corrupt, very corrupt, representative republic, where the power-entrenched, our appointed leaders, take PAC money and live great lives, and do not represent us the people. I am a big fan of the national referendum. You cannot referendum all issues, but the big ones you can. Eventually, we need to bypass the corrupt “middle-man” (aka Congress) . US citizens should be able to vote on the war on terror, the attack and occupation of Iraq, healthcare, classified government documents, the ever-expanding governmental bureaucracy, whatever. One can vote on ESPN “Sportsman of the Year” or on the Internet who is the “Sexiest Bimbo”, why not more important issues? So you argue that our model needs to be exported to all segments of the global community. That’s just what the world needs.
I challenge everyone to question the platform from which you form your opinions. There is ample evidence that the US government has evil elements. Do not ignore the historical record. Do not dismiss the long and arduous work of people who spend years and years trying to get the truth out to the American public. Question everything, for if we don’t the US will continue its downward spiral.
Posted at 02:47 pm by Scottie
|Posted by BP @ 12/09/2004 03:25 PM PST|
|Before I respond to all of this scottie (and it looks like it’s going to take a while).
Please let me know which Chomsky books you have read, and indicate which ones you read through twice. I’m going to put those two on your favorites list.
|Posted by Johnny B @ 12/09/2004 04:21 PM PST|
I don’t have time to respond to these all at once. This next week is real busy, and then I’ll be down home on the 18th…I’m going all over the place and won’t be stable until Jan. 7th.
I will say this: in your third to last paragraph you say American citizenry wanted isolationism, and it got it in Wilson. In your second to last paragraph you imply the citizenry isn’t represented. Is it possible, then, that the people in 1912 did not want to be isolated, and our corrupt republic pulled the strings for them?
I’m just playing around Scottie, we’ll talk about this later