The "Real Story of Thanksgiving"

This would have been a little more appropriate about a week ago, but given I didn’t really start looking into this until Thanksgiving…well…better late than never. I have never heard as many different versions of the same story in my life.

They go from the rather disturbing, to the downright spiritual; from the unabashadly capitalistic to the rather Utopian view we learned in school, and the downright confusing.

But the thing is, there are really only two first hand primary accounts of the events of the fall of 1621, and they are William Bradford’s Journal, Of Plymouth Plantation and Mourt’s Relation by Edward Winslow. Both tell a rather interesting (and similar, since Bradford wrote much of the first section of Mourt’s Relation) story of the Pilgrims and their plight but there are a few facts, and of course the above versions have varying degrees of sticking to, or perhaps distorting those facts:

1) It is a religious holiday. Pure and simple. Everything about the two accounts and indeed George Washington’s Thanksgiving proclamation shows that they were not just thanking Mother Nature or the Indians, they were thanking God, our Creator, Providence…etc.

2) The native Indian tribe represented by Squanto was extraordinarily helpful in the Pilgrim’s making it through the first winter. It is obvious that lives were probably saved because of their help (in addition to God’s).

3) The second winter (and subsequent winters) was much better when the Governor decided to dispense with the communal storage and let each of the settler’s families grow and be responsible for their own own food.

Much of the rest is speculation, and the funny thing is, after all of the different versions, all I can come up with from the actual accounts is quite similar to the story that I learned as a kid.

Isn’t that amazing.

Posted at 05:55 pm by Logipundit


Blue state blues

I have neither an opinion nor a set of facts, but a funny link

BTW, just because Butch is paranoid doesn’t mean people aren’t out to get him.

Posted at 10:29 am by Johnny B

New Authors

Welcome, Rothell and Scottie! We now have DISSENT! Thanks a bunch for posting, fellas. Jordan is on his way as well.

Speaking of authors, I’m thinking of putting a reading list on the site as well; I figure each author can have 5 or 10 recommended books, and I’ll list them under the authors.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Posted at 11:50 am by Logipundit

Response to Butch’s paranoia (and Rothell’s reply)

Rothell makes a great point about the stereotyping of the islamic world by the US media specifically, which is not representative of all western media. The demonization of muslims has been ongoing for quite some time. The subtleties of the demonization have disappeared since 9/11, and the coverage in the US media concerning the Islamic world I find to be repugnant. Case in point: the issue of Israel-Palestine, the single biggest contributor to anti-American sentiment abroad(and the reasons behind 9/11). I just read updated casualty stats since the 2000 intifada. 3500 dead Palestinians, and 850 dead Israelis, while the US media will quickly and adeptly paint the picture of “Palestinian terrorist” and “Israeli victim”, the disparity in deaths simply do not support such a portrayal. Another example, leading up to the deceptive Iraq war, is the lumping together of different Muslim groups by the US Media. One argument made for invading Iraq was that Saddam Hussein had ties with al-queda and Osama bin Laden. Never mind that Hussein gassed thousands of Kurds during the first gulf war, and in doing so , became a mortal enemy of bin Laden. However, the media here did a good enough job tossing them in the same salad bowl, and Americans blindly supported the argument that Iraq must have connections with al-queda. Butch will proudly tell everyone how he read “Against All Enemies” by Dick Clarke, while his take on that book is far different than mine. The CIA and Richard Clarke both concluded (rightly so) that al-queda was responsible for 9/11, and there was serious scheming in the Bush administration about how to point the finger at Iraq. The case for war was manufactured , and poorly I might add. Yet the American public swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. Perhaps the bigger issue to discuss is the indoctrination and gullibility of the American public …

Posted at 08:56 am by Scottie

Posted by BP @ 11/22/2004 11:44 AM PST
I find it hard to understand how calling someone’s beliefs “paranoid” adds to the discourse, however, please read the update to the post on “multiculturalism” if you’d like to hear my response to that assessment. I’m pretty sure, given your foreign policy beliefs, you’ve been called “paranoid” before as well, and probably took as much offense to it as I do. (“the american public swallowed it, hook, line and sinker” could be considered paranoid, by the way.

Also, your numbers on Palestinians and Israelis could possibly be incomplete. Has anyone (and I’m asking here, cause my research on it is not as throrough as yours) done the research on how many of these Palestinian casualties died as a result of “suicide” bombers, how many are a result of Israeli’s targeting of militants, and how many civilian deaths have occurred on each side.

Without those numbers, the argument looks a little weak.

"Terrorism Unveiled"

An interesting view of various Arab/Middle Eastern news sources via a grad student in Jordan. No time to comment, but something worth taking a glance at.

Posted at 09:36 am by Logipundit


Going to be travelling out west to see family for Thanksgiving, so I’m depending on my co-authors to pick up a little slack for me.


You guys have a great holiday; we have a lot to be thankful for.

Posted at 09:30 am by Logipundit


I read a pretty good little blog on the hypocrisy of the “multiculturalists”. Have you ever noticed that every civilization, culture, creed, religion deserves to be treated equally and fairly–except white devout Southern Protestants (who, incidentally, overwhelmingly supported our President in the recent election). Somehow bush tribes in Africa and Muslim extremists are given a better shake than “evangelicals” and “Christian conservatives” which are the dominant culture over 3/4 of our country.

“Tolerance” only applies if: a) it doesn’t involve Christianity and b) it does involve a minority.

It seems their hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Update: It was brought to my attention that I didn’t have sufficient backup for my “dominant culture over 3/4 of the country”, so here’s one example. It appears that 82% of the nation considers themselves Christian, including some of the blue states like Wisconsin, Rhode Island, Minnesota. (here’s another from the exit polls).

Possibly Muslim extremists should have been left out of the post, because it wasn’t central to the issue I was getting at, which is the lack of respect that the intellectual left has for Southern Christian conservatives. And if you want good examples of how Christianity is every bit as discriminated against as the Q’uran, I would suggest a book titled “Persecution” by David Limbaugh. I’ll save other weblinks for a later post, but I’ll blindly post to David’s website, which I haven’t had the chance to read.

Imagine if the Bible was on the reading list at UNC, do you think that would have gone over real well? If it had been tossed off the list as too controversial, would the multiculturalists have blinked? Not sure, but my hunch is probably not.

Either way, thanks for calling me on the lack of support to my statistics.

Posted at 08:37 am by Logipundit

Posted by Rothell @ 11/19/2004 11:41 PM PST
I’m watching MSNBC with my roommate and there’s a program called “Scarborough Country” running a story tagged with the flashy red-white-&blue graphic “Solid American Values” while promoting an upcoming story about (and clearly condemning) how the ACLU filed a lawsuit recently against some public schools for putting religion or something about God in the classroom. My roommate changed the channel before I could see the package (its his tv). I don’t always condone such extreme measures to address or counter the use of religion in public institutions (I say keep state and religion separated, though you may disagree), but the ranting in the show, this equating “Strong American Values” with the Bible and Christian values, led me to wonder what would happen if somebody tried putting the Quran in a school here in the U.S. But pause on that thought.

Butch said on Weddnesday…
” ‘Tolerance’ only applies if: a) it doesn’t involve Christianity and b) it does involve a minority.”

Butch also said that “somehow bush tribes in Africa and Muslim extremists are given a better shake than “evangelicals” and “Christian conservatives” which are the dominant culture over 3/4 of our country.”

I’m not sure what to make of that claim. Without any secific cases and numbers to prove that point, to be honest, I’m not particularly interested in this complaint. But I’ll take that challenge and offer you up this: 1.2 billion people on this planet are Islamic. That means their religious text is the Quran. How tolerant are we really towards this very large religious community (second largest in the world?) The leaders of our country, namely members of our current administration and some Congressional Party members (see below for specific quotes) have not only shown to be outwardly intolerant regarding the Quran but have equated it with terrorism. For them Quran = fundamentalist Islam = terrorist.

I’ll site a specific case. You may have heard about the North Carolina University (Chapel Hill) that included into its Freshmen curriculum reading assignments from a book that was a survey of the Quran ( Michael Sells’ “Approaching the Qu’ran: The Early Revelations” see on amazon The point of this assignment seems pretty clear. Americans in general know relatively little about the cultures of the Middle East, whic, like Judaism, is molded largely by their religion and this was a logical way to teach kids about a text, religion, and culture. Other people thought differently and the book was banned from the curriculum by the state. You can read articles about it…

How tolerant was this state’s ruling? How tolerant was NC state Rep (R) Wayne Sexton when he said “Just think of what it costs to protect ourselves from this faction, and here we are promoting it”? Or Rep. Gene Arnold (R) when he said “I see this as insensitive, arrogant and poor timing to allow students to read about our attackers”? People who say this and believe this equate the Quran with terrorists. A religious text that inspires violence? By that logic we might deduce that the acts of terrorism in England and Northern Ireland against the loyalists are also inspired by a religious text, the Bible (Catholics versus Protestants). But we know that, despite what some may say even within these groups, these struggles are not relgion-inspired. Are they not, as they have always been, territorial disputes under the banner of religion?

How tolerant are you? My family, who, God bless them, is so staunchly Republican and so right-wing Southern Baptist that they practically shit Bible verses, would be more than delighted if kids were praying to Jesus every morning in school. How would they react if it were mandated that kids pray to Allah or even to just read out of the Quran? You can guess. How would you react? How tolerant are you?